Arab Instruments Forum

Doumbek / Darbuka => Darbuka Sound & Video Clips => Topic started by: davidko2 on June 05, 2019, 01:22:56 AM

Title: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: davidko2 on June 05, 2019, 01:22:56 AM
Hi everyone,

I came across a nice rythm in a documentary about Oman. I was trying to write it down but I can't get it right.

the link to the audio file is here (I also uploaded the file): https://instaud.io/3LDm

I started to write it down as the following (a 5/4 rythm) but it does not sound right: D-tkDtk-tk

thanks for your help
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 05, 2019, 04:57:44 PM
Hello and welcome to the forums!!  I listen to the sound sample several times but it is kind of hard to make out.  I actually couldn’t even figure out the time signature.  For a small bit I thought I heard a 5/4 rhythm, but then it could have just been syncopated accents.  I will study it some more.  I’m sure dHuGo will chime in soon... he’s good at this kind of stuff :)
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 06, 2019, 07:27:47 AM
Hi guys, you fully know how to engage one in and over night...!
 ??? ::) :P ;) :)

But I think I got it:
I now have a full script to your sample ready... (approximately - still with some copy-and-paste inside)!!!

... not sure yet - and I'd find it funny some could guess the time signature first,  before I come out with mine!!
My advice: Listen to the piano!!! - Good luck!

fb: Witch's Kitchen (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2304622329753461&id=100006171488695)

btw: Mystérieuse Arabie - Oman, au pays des contes (https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/063605-003-F/mysterieuse-arabie/) will be soon (18.06.2016) on arte.tv again.
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 07, 2019, 01:59:59 PM
Hello to all,
first, here is my full script of that what I hear, when I listen to the clip:

1       2       3       4       5       : Piano
… - t tkD k s - t k D - t k t k t k t tk: …=(D)?
6       7       8       9       10      : Piano
D - t k D k s - t tkD - t k t k t k - - :
11      12      13      14      15      : Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k t k - - :
16      17      18      19      |        Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k |

1       2       3       4       5       : Oud & Piano
D - - k D - S - . - D  ¿t 3 S?k T ¿Pppp?:¿t 3 S?=¿t tkt S?
6       7       8       9       10      : Oud & Piano
D - - k D - S - . - D  ¿t k t k t k ? ? :
11      12      13      14      15      : Piano & Text
D - t tkD k s - t k D - t k t k t k t tk:
16      17      18      19      |        Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k |

1       2                                Man shouting
D - t k D …

So, you can see, by the lead of Piano chords I've got an idea of a strictly 19 beat structure in sample!

The Piano theme is of two parts with 5 accents each. The theme comes twice, but in the second time later part is shorter by one beat. - Then, next (lost!) beat is unexpected introducing a counterpart - an Oud theme of 5 counts beginning with a strong chord and repeated one time only - and followed again by same Piano theme, the shortened version.

Following my hypothesis we'd have a 19/4 time signature of a strict 5+5+5+4 structure…

By another viewpoint - according to a regional approach and the rhythmical feeling - reviewed pattern might be a polyrhythmic arrangement based on Khaligi (Saudi).

Since Awfare is a well known Muwashshah with a 19/4 time signature it might be related here too.

All in all I'm still soo fare from a solution… What would say you?!

P.S.
Soundtrack to mentioned documentary was composed by Alfred Mehnert (c) (https://alfredmehnert.jimdo.com/komposition/)

Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 07, 2019, 04:14:50 PM
 :) I knew you would find the time and have the patience to do this.  Let’s see what the OP thinks...
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 07, 2019, 05:13:13 PM
Oh dear, I'd zapped into the documentary on arte.de in March myself! - even "Oman" - it's one part of five. and stunning: Even this piece of music gathered me at all. I'd had the idea to look it over, but failed to download file from mediathek. -  So, it was a big surprise to find the request  here  - and a great motivation too...
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: davidko2 on June 08, 2019, 07:12:16 PM
Hi,

many thanks for taking the time to identify the rhythm. It sounds very very close indeed.

I actually were able to contact Alfred Mehnert and receive a response from him:

Here is the link to the base part of the rhythm (in classical music style writing):

(https://i.postimg.cc/136h0bBX/image.png)

and here is the link ot the entire song: https://instaud.io/3MWI

I cannot read classical music style partition, so if this helps you to translate the rythm in the same way you have below, that would be great

Thanks

David

*Mod: Added img from link
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 09, 2019, 05:26:56 AM
Great post!  Surely written as a 5/4 rhythm and also for Udu.  I wondered what the instrument was in the recording.  I am not very familiar with the udu.  Seems like a very cool instrument.

I do read standard notation and rhythms.  The best way (IMO) to understand this would be to break it down into its sub beats:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
O       X   O   .   X   O       X     X |
O   v   X   O   v   X   O       X   X X |


The top line represents the 5 count measure and the two bottom lines represents the played hits.  Sounds as - 1, 2 and, and 4, 5 ah, 1 and, 2 and, 3 and, 4, 5 and ah.

I hope this helps!

*Mod: redacted and set note transcript to font "Courier"
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 09, 2019, 08:53:12 AM
Hi David,
great work!

@ bsfloyd
https://youtu.be/SDHOqVRA9Ks
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 09, 2019, 04:54:11 PM
Many thanks to Mr. Mehnert for the lot of worthy material!!! - Wow, I like this topic...!

When I listened  over our 1st sample here I had an idea there must be an Udu within arrangement,  but my main impression of the piece was even that: "Hey, a Darbouka!"

So let's look the Udu pattern (sounds should be same as in introduction video to that instrument above):

bsfloyd, thank you for your transcript. - You used all "X" to show rhythm. - I changed symbols to show a relation to note heads like in pic and according sounds:
"O" is the full open tone (closing and open hole) on Udu - on Darbouka I'd prefer a Doum instead.
"X" should be played as Slaps on Udu - respectively all Tekka on Darbouka
"◇" note head or "v" in transcript might be the base sound full closing the hole! - This effect stops previous open sounding. On Darbouka we need a strong Doum followed by a Grasp: Open your palm and fingers like a fan and hit the drum slightly with little  pressure around centerfield. Motion is similar to Slap but causes a dump sound only that stops membran.

So we come to this adaptation for a Darbouka:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D       k   D   .   k   D       T     k |
D   g   k   D   g   k   D       T   t k |
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 10, 2019, 03:55:12 PM
Wonderful!!  Now I need to buy an udu  :D

It was fun working that rhythm out.  It’s good to know all those years of not using my rhythm reading skills didn’t fall far away from me  ;)

Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 12, 2019, 01:10:10 PM
... OMG ... I'm not the dealer!!!
 :) ;D :D ;)

Let's look over the base pattern again (to understand the strong Khaligi feeling):

Common Khaligi (Saudi) is right like Malfuf:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ |
D   -   -   D   -   -   T   -   |


The new pure base comes with an additional Doum at 4th beat moving the Tak to the 5th:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D           D           D       T       |


Do you agree?

You may find another Saudi rhythm called "Radmaan" on khafif.com (http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhylist.html) at the other side:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D           T       T   D       T       |


Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 12, 2019, 05:39:10 PM
Ah ha - yes, I see it (and more so feel it).  Another new 5 beat rhythm to add to my playing!
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: davidko2 on June 12, 2019, 09:50:40 PM
thanks a lot!

time to work on it now.

Also, this website is a gem: http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhylist.html

Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 13, 2019, 04:04:53 PM
thanks a lot!

time to work on it now.

Also, this website is a gem: http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhylist.html

My favorite resource!!
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: davidko2 on June 14, 2019, 12:56:08 AM
Now I am lost

on your first script, the two Dums are on the 1s and 2nd beat:

1       2       3       4       5       : Piano
… - t tkD k s - t k D - t k t k t k t tk: …=(D)?
6       7       8       9       10      : Piano
D - t k D k s - t tkD - t k t k t k - - :
11      12      13      14      15      : Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k t k - - :
16      17      18      19      |        Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k |


However your last version does not have two dums on the beat:
1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D       k   D   .   k   D       T     k |
D   g   k   D   g   k   D       T   t k |



What am I missing?

I think your first script is closer to what I hear in the video
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 14, 2019, 06:50:31 PM
Hi, David, sorry it's all in process...

My 1st script was on a hypothesis of a 19 beat pattern related to the Piano chords as beat. - Now we have information that's a 5/4 base and Udu gives the timing! That means the Piano actually plays half notes, so we really have 38 beats instead of 19 in first part! There is a Cymbal playng the beats in 1st record.

I try to rewrite whole script, here is the beginning:

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
P===----        P===----        P===----| Piano
O       X   O   .   X   O   -   X     X | Udu
D   -   t   k   D   k   s   -   t   k   | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
        P======-        P======-        | Piano
O   v   X   O   v   X   O       X   X X | Udu
D       T   k   k   T           T   t k | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
P===----        P===----        P===----| Piano
O       X   O   .   X   O   -   X     X | Udu
D   -   t   k   D   k   s   -   t   k   | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
        P======-        P======-        | Piano
O   v   X   O   v   X   O       X   X X | Udu
D       T   k   k   T           T   k   | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
pP==----        P===----        P===----| Piano
O       X   O   .   X   O   -   X     X | Udu
D   -   t   k   D   k   s   -   t   k   | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
        P======-    p===P======-        | Piano
O   v   X   O   v   X   O       X   X X | Udu
D       T   k   k   T           T   t k | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - 5 - + - |
P===----        P===----        P===----| Piano
O       X   O   .   X   O   -   X     X | Udu
D   -   t   k   D   k   s   -   t   k   | Darbouka

1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - | Text
        P======-        | Piano
O   v   X   O   v   X   | Udu
D       T   k   k   T   | Darbouka
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: bsfloyd on June 15, 2019, 06:32:14 AM
Great work, dHuGo,  Now we have a detailed score  :)

@ davidko2 - I think the confusing part is that there are several parts working off each other, and the piano part is very syncopated with its off beats.  I think if you play either parts (udu or darbuka as posted above) it will sound just fine.  And, if you wish to create your own line within those two rhythms you can have your own creation   ;)

Have fun with it!
Title: Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
Post by: dHuGo on June 15, 2019, 05:57:40 PM
Sorry, I have that "syncopated" feeling with Piano too, but my count is absolutely straight on every 2nd beat! - ... have no more words ...