Author Topic: Help needed to identify a ryhtm  (Read 412 times)

davidko2

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Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« on: June 05, 2019, 01:22:56 AM »
Hi everyone,

I came across a nice rythm in a documentary about Oman. I was trying to write it down but I can't get it right.

the link to the audio file is here (I also uploaded the file): https://instaud.io/3LDm

I started to write it down as the following (a 5/4 rythm) but it does not sound right: D-tkDtk-tk

thanks for your help



bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 04:57:44 PM »
Hello and welcome to the forums!!  I listen to the sound sample several times but it is kind of hard to make out.  I actually couldn’t even figure out the time signature.  For a small bit I thought I heard a 5/4 rhythm, but then it could have just been syncopated accents.  I will study it some more.  I’m sure dHuGo will chime in soon... he’s good at this kind of stuff :)

dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 07:27:47 AM »
Hi guys, you fully know how to engage one in and over night...!
 ??? ::) :P ;) :)

But I think I got it:
I now have a full script to your sample ready... (approximately - still with some copy-and-paste inside)!!!

... not sure yet - and I'd find it funny some could guess the time signature first,  before I come out with mine!!
My advice: Listen to the piano!!! - Good luck!

fb: Witch's Kitchen

btw: Mystérieuse Arabie - Oman, au pays des contes will be soon (18.06.2016) on arte.tv again.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 09:44:34 AM by dHuGo »

dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 01:59:59 PM »
Hello to all,
first, here is my full script of that what I hear, when I listen to the clip:

1       2       3       4       5       : Piano
… - t tkD k s - t k D - t k t k t k t tk: …=(D)?
6       7       8       9       10      : Piano
D - t k D k s - t tkD - t k t k t k - - :
11      12      13      14      15      : Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k t k - - :
16      17      18      19      |        Text & Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k |

1       2       3       4       5       : Oud & Piano
D - - k D - S - . - D  ¿t 3 S?k T ¿Pppp?:¿t 3 S?=¿t tkt S?
6       7       8       9       10      : Oud & Piano
D - - k D - S - . - D  ¿t k t k t k ? ? :
11      12      13      14      15      : Piano & Text
D - t tkD k s - t k D - t k t k t k t tk:
16      17      18      19      |        Piano
D - t k D k s - t k D - t k t k |

1       2                                Man shouting
D - t k D …

So, you can see, by the lead of Piano chords I've got an idea of a strictly 19 beat structure in sample!

The Piano theme is of two parts with 5 accents each. The theme comes twice, but in the second time later part is shorter by one beat. - Then, next (lost!) beat is unexpected introducing a counterpart - an Oud theme of 5 counts beginning with a strong chord and repeated one time only - and followed again by same Piano theme, the shortened version.

Following my hypothesis we'd have a 19/4 time signature of a strict 5+5+5+4 structure…

By another viewpoint - according to a regional approach and the rhythmical feeling - reviewed pattern might be a polyrhythmic arrangement based on Khaligi (Saudi).

Since Awfare is a well known Muwashshah with a 19/4 time signature it might be related here too.

All in all I'm still soo fare from a solution… What would say you?!

P.S.
Soundtrack to mentioned documentary was composed by Alfred Mehnert (c)

« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 02:02:55 PM by dHuGo »

bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 04:14:50 PM »
 :) I knew you would find the time and have the patience to do this.  Let’s see what the OP thinks...

dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 05:13:13 PM »
Oh dear, I'd zapped into the documentary on arte.de in March myself! - even "Oman" - it's one part of five. and stunning: Even this piece of music gathered me at all. I'd had the idea to look it over, but failed to download file from mediathek. -  So, it was a big surprise to find the request  here  - and a great motivation too...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 05:14:53 PM by dHuGo »

davidko2

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2019, 07:12:16 PM »
Hi,

many thanks for taking the time to identify the rhythm. It sounds very very close indeed.

I actually were able to contact Alfred Mehnert and receive a response from him:

Here is the link to the base part of the rhythm (in classical music style writing):



and here is the link ot the entire song: https://instaud.io/3MWI

I cannot read classical music style partition, so if this helps you to translate the rythm in the same way you have below, that would be great

Thanks

David

*Mod: Added img from link
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:54:41 AM by dHuGo »

bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 05:26:56 AM »
Great post!  Surely written as a 5/4 rhythm and also for Udu.  I wondered what the instrument was in the recording.  I am not very familiar with the udu.  Seems like a very cool instrument.

I do read standard notation and rhythms.  The best way (IMO) to understand this would be to break it down into its sub beats:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
O       X   O   .   X   O       X     X |
O   v   X   O   v   X   O       X   X X |


The top line represents the 5 count measure and the two bottom lines represents the played hits.  Sounds as - 1, 2 and, and 4, 5 ah, 1 and, 2 and, 3 and, 4, 5 and ah.

I hope this helps!

*Mod: redacted and set note transcript to font "Courier"
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 03:01:56 AM by dHuGo »

dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2019, 08:53:12 AM »
Hi David,
great work!

@ bsfloyd
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 04:17:42 PM by dHuGo »

dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2019, 04:54:11 PM »
Many thanks to Mr. Mehnert for the lot of worthy material!!! - Wow, I like this topic...!

When I listened  over our 1st sample here I had an idea there must be an Udu within arrangement,  but my main impression of the piece was even that: "Hey, a Darbouka!"

So let's look the Udu pattern (sounds should be same as in introduction video to that instrument above):

bsfloyd, thank you for your transcript. - You used all "X" to show rhythm. - I changed symbols to show a relation to note heads like in pic and according sounds:
"O" is the full open tone (closing and open hole) on Udu - on Darbouka I'd prefer a Doum instead.
"X" should be played as Slaps on Udu - respectively all Tekka on Darbouka
"◇" note head or "v" in transcript might be the base sound full closing the hole! - This effect stops previous open sounding. On Darbouka we need a strong Doum followed by a Grasp: Open your palm and fingers like a fan and hit the drum slightly with little  pressure around centerfield. Motion is similar to Slap but causes a dump sound only that stops membran.

So we come to this adaptation for a Darbouka:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D       k   D   .   k   D       T     k |
D   g   k   D   g   k   D       T   t k |
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 03:02:25 AM by dHuGo »

bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 03:55:12 PM »
Wonderful!!  Now I need to buy an udu  :D

It was fun working that rhythm out.  It’s good to know all those years of not using my rhythm reading skills didn’t fall far away from me  ;)


dHuGo

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 01:10:10 PM »
... OMG ... I'm not the dealer!!!
 :) ;D :D ;)

Let's look over the base pattern again (to understand the strong Khaligi feeling):

Common Khaligi (Saudi) is right like Malfuf:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ |
D   -   -   D   -   -   T   -   |


The new pure base comes with an additional Doum at 4th beat moving the Tak to the 5th:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D           D           D       T       |


Do you agree?

You may find another Saudi rhythm called "Radmaan" on khafif.com at the other side:

1 _ _ _ 2 _ _ _ 3 _ _ _ 4 _ _ _ 5 _ _ _ |
D           T       T   D       T       |



bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 05:39:10 PM »
Ah ha - yes, I see it (and more so feel it).  Another new 5 beat rhythm to add to my playing!

davidko2

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2019, 09:50:40 PM »
thanks a lot!

time to work on it now.

Also, this website is a gem: http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhylist.html


bsfloyd

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Re: Help needed to identify a ryhtm
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 04:04:53 PM »
thanks a lot!

time to work on it now.

Also, this website is a gem: http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhylist.html

My favorite resource!!